Teams and MILSIMs

[The Shootist]

Okay, over the list someone was talking about Team BlackJack, out of ATL. I went to their site and looked at their rules, and gear guides, et cetera.

To a certain extenet, I like the ideas of teams and MILSIMs; but I also like the idea of casual gaming. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun; why make it any more complicated than that?

It's, also, fun to have a defined structure, and a bit of discipline when/if we were to go up against other teams. Also, working out team tactics, hand signals, codes/phrases, heirarchies, primary and secondary skills (i.e. support gunner, sniper, scout, etc), et cetera can be fun and interesting, adding a new dimension of intelligent combat to the game.

So, I'm curious to hear what other people think.

Who advocates doing the Team thing, and who only cares about the game as a game, or both? Most importantly, why?

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I advocate this system:

If you go to Team BlackJack's website, linked above, they have levels of membership. I say we build upon that idea.

Private - Private First Class: Purely casual gamer, has no responsibilities to show up at game, but must confirm- a week in advance- to be able to participate in any game. Must obey FPS rules, and other field guidelines; but doesn't need to have any special equipment (BDUs, web gear, full size replica weapon, et cetera). May not be able to participate in certain "hardcore" MILSIMs, may be required to pay a fee for use of the course. Can pick which rank they are (PVT, PV2, PFC). Required to attend at least one game a year.

Specialist or Corporal: A casual gamer (Private) who volunteers regularly to help out with site maintainence, et cetera- freeing him from the need to always pay a fee. Otherwise, a Private-Private First Class. Pick their rank (SPC, CPL). Required to attend 2 games a year. This can also apply to casual gamers who only occasionally want to play in MILSIMs. MILSIMS require extra gear: BDUs, and a real-sized weapon.

Sergeant - Master Sergeant: Basic MILSIMers. Required to have basic BDU set, (any country is fine, any military branch, I think it's safe to say the Camo pattern must be Woodland or OD Green. Loosely required to have some basic web gear (a web belt with canteen(s), and ammo pouch; or a ruck sack; or a tactical vest; etc). Basically, something to carry your equipment in, that fits with the idea of Military Simulation (MILSIM). Must have a "REAL" weapon. No, not real steel, but it must be the same size as the real thing. Yes, plastic weapons can be "real". May get laughed at for having a clear plastic M4 springer than you fall on and break ;D , but it's allowable. Is required to help with on site maintainence before game at least once a year; and must attend 3 games a year. I figure we'd either do a yearly due that would cover field cost for the year, or we'd do a small yearly due that would go towards buying a case of bio BBs, and maybe a team patch. One way there'd be no field fees, the other there would be. Can pick their rank (SGT, SSG, SFC, MSG). Required to have either patches to display rank, or blacked-out metal ensignia.

First Sergeant-Sergeant Major: Basically the same as a Sergeant-Master Sergeant, required to have a radio, and a ruck sack of some sort (to carry replacement batteries for the radio, and a basic first aid kit, along with extra water). Must attend 4 games a year. Must help out with site maintainence twice a year, at least. Can pick rank (1SG, SGM, CSM). Due to the requirements added to them, for gear, they can go with any style of Tactical Gear (All Black, Desert Camo, et cetera). Maybe Dave could give these guys a bit of a discount on site fees, but that's something that'd have to be discussed- for now, don't count on it. Automatically get moderator status here on the boards.

Supreme Commander: Must fit requirements as a First Sergeant - Sergeant Major. Is elected by 2/3 majority of the First Sergeants - Sergeant Majors. This is the overall Team Leader. He must have a rank of Colonel or higher. This is for if we play with other teams with officers, or high ranking members, we have someone to speak for us. He has additional responsibilities of coordinating the gaming site, and letting the rest of the team members know about upcoming games/events/site maintainence days. Settles ties in votes done by the lesser Ranks. Doesn't get to vote, but gets to speak on all topics, and decides when the official vote occurs. Again, maybe we can work out a deal with Dave on letting this person get off with a discounted site fee, or something. This person is required to attend 5 or more games a year, and participate in 2 or more site maintainance days.

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Firstly, if you have any questions on ranks, look here. Very good resource on what the ranks mean, and how many soldiers tend to be under them- plus shows the insignia.

Secondly, Other Issues, sorta mentioned:

Site Maintainence (SM):
Two types: General and Game

Game SM is generally policing your own garbage, picking up after the days gaming, and not flicking cigarette butts everywhere. Anyone at the game is expected to follow all site rules on litter/garbage/trash/refuse.

General SM are those times when the team gets together to make new bunkers, barricades, artillery, etc. Also, these include generally helping Dave around his place so that we may continue to use that as a site. Ask Mongo for more info on this. So far I'm a paying member, not a working one.

Voting:
There will be issues that arrise, there always are. Any team member can call for a vote, at a game; only Sergeants and above can call for a vote at other times. Votes are not polls (here on the board), though a poll may be used. All votes, unless otherwise stated, are passed via simple majority. The Supreme Commander (SUC) will decide certain things, like who gets to vote (What Rank and above). All First Sergeants and above will always vote; except the SUC- as stated earlier. The SUC does decide when the vote will be taken; and the First Sergeants (and above) can vote to force a re-vote. This keeps the SUC from being able to pass bullshit rules that no one else agrees with.

Ranks:
Anyone Can be a Master Sergeant or Below, by simply meeting a few criteria. First Sergeants, and Above, must be voted it- along with meeting the basic requirements.

Anyone who is voted up, but doesn't meet the basic equipment requirments will have 3 months to meet these requirements, at which time there will be a vote, if this vote fails, the member has lost their chance, and may not try again for six months. If the vote passes, the member has 3 more months to acquire the equipment.

The Unit:
My idea for the unit, is to generally restrict it to woodland camo BDUs; but to define it as a mercenary company. That way, you can use whatever country's cam scheme you like, so long as it's woodland or OD Green. This allows flexibility; plus we're not annoying anyone by taking the name of a real ARMY\MARINE unit. We can even write out a fake background about the whole thing- allowing it to reflect the team as a whole.

In Conclusion:
I'm not saying we'd only play MILSIMs, and people get to choose their ranks for a reason, because- except for category- they don't really matter. But this would lend itself, fairly easily, to switching quickly between MILSIMs and casual games. Plus, there are minimum requirements for gear; but there aren't the strict gear limits of some other teams. Things are a lot more lax. You can have full Battle Rattle, and remain a Corporal because you don't want to be anything else. That's perfectly cool.


All of these things are negotiable, most of them are simply guidelines I'd like to use. Anyone got comments/changes/ questions?



{Wow, a lot longer than I intended, but I think that covers my opinion, except where there may be clarification issues}.

[klookenstein]

i love it, a tweak here and there so no one gets their feelings hurt as far as the ranks go(mostly jsut makin sure no one gets carried away with it, id never do it, but an example would be my punk ass tryin to tell boat to do something, i got too much respect myself, but to avoid somethin like that) but hell gimme some time to buy the gear and slap a seargeant major on me:D

[The Shootist]

It's not perfect!?!

;D


The ranking thing is a problem, but it also allows people to choose how they want to proceed. If you want no rank, but still want to be in a category; pick the lowest rank in that category. It's not a perfect system, but it's a bit more flexible than what, say, the BlackJack's use.

There are merits to using this system, and flaws with it. For instance, it's a bit much to remember.

Is that a Master Sergeant, or a Sergeant First Class? I'll just say "Sar'ent" and move on. Is it Master Sergeant and below or above that's the same category? Shit shit shit...

However, it does allow more flexibility in your organization once the very basic stuff is figured out. If you want to be a MILSIMer and not be a leader, you can stay as a Sergeant, or Staff Sergeant. If you only have a bit of gear, but you want to be a leader, you can choose to be a Master Sergeant. Later on, if you want more or less responsibility, you can change your rank inside of your category. The Sergeant can make himself a Master Sergeant, a Master Sergeant can make himself Sergeant First Class.

Also, a note on Gear:

A Ruck Sack can be a blacked out back pack; though this will probably get you laughed at by some of the more hardcore guys- and I'm not sure it'll be legal for some games (like some of the big OPs and events). However, it should be ONE COLOR ONLY. Pick a color on your camo scheme (brown, tan, green, black, grey, etc).

A radio only costs about $14. You need one that can get channels 1 - 13. Eventually we might standaradize this. The radio isn't required to be on during the game; but it is required to be on your person. This way you don't need a throat mic, or a hands-free set; but you can still use the radio in an emergency should one arrise. Batteries cost between $2 and $20.

A basic first aid kit costs about $20 bucks. We might, if we collect member dues, figure this into the cost of membership. So a basic first aid kit will cost you $20 or less. If you buy your own, get one that won't get damaged if it gets wet, or crushed (a sealed metal box works well to prevent both of those). This will be in the rucksack, on the top- in case it's needed quickly.

Extra water in case someone gets dehydrated. An extra quart is the minimum. So if you normally carry one canteen for yourself, then carry two canteens and only use one for yourself. Or stick a quart or two of water in your ruck sack.

Also, the rucksack can be left at a "Basecamp" or "Spawn Point", but the radio is required to be checked at the beginning of every ROUND and to be on your person AT ALL TIMES during games.

Basically, if you want to be a leader, you're taking responsibility for the people under you, carrying extra equipment that wil aid you in aiding anyone who is hurt. The water is for dehydration, the first aid kit is self-explanatory, and the radios allow quick and efficent communications should someone fall down and break a bone, or something equally as not cool.

If you're not prepared to take responsibility for aiding your teammates, you don't need to be a leader. Get in the rear, with the gear.

[haslinger]

Some things to keep in mind. People love to word drop the whole Milsim thing, but I've only really come across 1 may be 2 people that follow the general milsim guidelines [I.E. Rank, 30 round mags, only operator gear, ect.]. I'm not so into the purist milsim thing. We operated under the guise of a milsport team. Meaning to say, we do military simulations, but we also are really there to have fun. Requirements to join our team are rather strict, as we have learned that if you just let people on, they don't appreciate what it truly means to have a man beside you in the foxhole [most of my teammates are IN my wedding, the others are attending]. Also we wanted to help make being a team to be something special. So many airsoft groups suddenly have 6239723 teams and instead of building chracter as a whole unit they divert their attention to how many kills each individual got. How is that teamwork. We banned Kill Counting on our field, and definately within the ranks of the team, it just leads to broken spirits, arrogance, and is just plain stupid [IMO]. We've run with Team Blackjack. Those guys are good and very fun to play with/against, because they follow the number 1, most important rule of airsoft...they have fun!!! If I can help you guys in any way let me know.

[The Shootist]

haslinger said:

Some things to keep in mind. People love to word drop the whole Milsim thing, but I've only really come across 1 may be 2 people that follow the general milsim guidelines [I.E. Rank, 30 round mags, only operator gear, ect.]. I'm not so into the purist milsim thing. We operated under the guise of a milsport team. Meaning to say, we do military simulations, but we also are really there to have fun. Requirements to join our team are rather strict, as we have learned that if you just let people on, they don't appreciate what it truly means to have a man beside you in the foxhole [most of my teammates are IN my wedding, the others are attending]. Also we wanted to help make being a team to be something special. So many airsoft groups suddenly have 6239723 teams and instead of building chracter as a whole unit they divert their attention to how many kills each individual got. How is that teamwork. We banned Kill Counting on our field, and definately within the ranks of the team, it just leads to broken spirits, arrogance, and is just plain stupid [IMO]. We've run with Team Blackjack. Those guys are good and very fun to play with/against, because they follow the number 1, most important rule of airsoft...they have fun!!! If I can help you guys in any way let me know.

Your thoughts and opinions are a big help, for starters. Having viewpoints from "outside" allows the processes to be better defined and solutions to become better evident. In other words, I can't think of everything.

[bigwheat]

I like the idea of bringing some order and discipline into the games - through teams, and that it should add to the fun and comraderie, too. It is really unfun to be disorganized.

I thing this schema is a good middle ground.

My one question, though, is how would this work for those that live further away (e.g. Huntsville)?

BigWheat

[The Shootist]

Well, wheat, if you go back and look; the only requirements that have a locational value are games, and site maintainence. Site maintainence can be done the day before, or the day after a game. So that's not hard, and since the game requirements are between 3 and 5 games a year, there's 9-7 games you can miss and still be fullfilling your obligations (as there is one game a month, usually).

There are a few things I want to change, basically, I'd like to make it more of a Merc Group: Change the equipment requirements from BDUs, to a Uniform consisting of pants, a shirt, and a blouse; plus headgear (either a hat or face covering). The Uniform can be any Camo scheme of your choice, or OD Green, or Black. This gives the teammembers a far wider choice of what they can wear.

If you move it more towards the merc side of thing it gives people more choice in the situation.

Does that answer your question, Wheat?

[mongoman]

Teams are tough.

Speaking as an SCAer for many years, it is hard to organize folks for anything against their will. Teams have to be a group of enthusiatic individuals with a common cause. My wife and I have a SCA household of over 20 members. Some people come and play, others don't so much. I can encourage folks, but I can't MAKE them do anything.

We have a parallel here. The individual has to make up their mind to be a part of team. If the hierarchy of the team is decided amongst the members, then they should be willing to follow those rules and "pledge" to help on field development, run games, build, and dedicate time to the group.

However, I want to encourage the casual player as well. I feel it is important to exclude no one with an interest in the sport.

Locally, we are in the process, obviously, of building a team. I believe that the process of who is and who is not members of the team will become evident fairly quickly, if not already. We must encourage everyone, but only allow the dedicated on the "Team" (whatever we end up naming it:)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.


M

[haslinger]

That's how we do it. We "lost" a few members, but the dedicated ones that made it through our evaluation phase...are well worth the "loss." As the premiere airsoft contractor team, be aware that those guys don't really do the uniform thing at all. The only time they wear the polo/khaki load out is when they're running something that forces them to. It is my understanding from...er...research...that simming the types of games that we do, these guys will dress appropriately...meaning BDU's, 5.11, Vests ect.

Also...if you go hardcore contractor...you gotta get an m4 (imho)

Has(shole)

[cookchr]

I definately like the idea of adding structure to a team. I would imagine that adding small things like this cause an increase in discipline, resulting in better competition between friends even if its just a friendly run around shoot-em up game. Atleast you are a little more focused. That's my idea anyway.

[mongoman]

Just to give an example in evolution of things.

We started as a gaggle. We were truly a mongolian cluster f$$k. We have evolved. In a very short time, I know what Tom, or Mihel, or Houston will do. I understand that Psycho or Chimp are best for recon, I understand that I work better in ambush, because I present such a huge target(really, just shoot in my general direction and you will hit me, no need to aim) and this has helped our team evolve. This weekend at OIJ, one of the only things I was pleased about was the disipline and teamwork we exihitbited. We no longer play as individuals, we lock our fields of fire, and rely on each other. This didn't happen because we said, "this is how it is, get on the program or I will kick your butt out", we go to this point because we have played together so much. That is the key, play, play, play. The folks with a military background have a definate advantage, but I think we all account for ourselves fairly well. Rank can be given, but unless you are respected, unless you show initiative, then you will be ineffective as a commander. In this sport, it seems that those who want to play in the role of a unit with a commander must WANT to participate in that structure. I just never want to get to the point where we REQUIRE BDU's, or this type of gear load, or this type of uniform. I want folks to feel comfortable when they come to our games. I want the hosting group to be helpful and friendly. I want there to be structure, but not too much. I want there to be an itinerary, but I had rather deviate from the schedule to make sure everyone is on board, and that everyone has time to see the lay of the land, ask questions, etc.

Now, if I knowingly join a TEAM, then I should adhere to the rules set forth by the team. As far as the 4/20KAAV, we have no uniform requirements, or load out requirements, just as long as you are in a military uniform. You must be able to carry water. I want everyone to have radios. If a team member is buying a gun, I point out that if they get an M4 variant, we can all share mags, but that is all. Hell, technically, I am not the team leader. Sometimes Tom leads, sometimes Mihel leads, sometimes Houston and Chimp lead. We are more of a team of equals. Without the members of the team, there would be no team. Most of the guys on our team are GROWN MEN(and soon to be WOMEN) so I always try to treat them as such. Most importantly, we never, ever, ever, carry command off the field. When we are back at the base camp, or planning, or whatever that isn't related to ops, then we are simply a group of friends, of equals. I have amazing powers of laziness(akin to the use of the force in Jedi) that let me bend the weak minded to do my bidding (as in "Houston, go get me a coke", wave the hand, lower my voice) but If I dressed Tom down publically for failing to take a flank, or not standing at attention, then I would expect Tom to give me a punch to the head. Mutual (or Mutant) respect is the name of the game. Team by the very word means we work together to gain a common goal. The common goal is to shoot the other fellows full of plastic bbs and to have fun. Fun is why I am doing this, fun is what keeps me coming back. I am 43 going on 10. I like playing army. Now I know how to play.

Sorry to rant, just had a frustrating weekend. Read all about it in The MilSporting News this evening.

Mongo

[haslinger]

Ummm you guys at OIJ = TFAT's RIVALS...holy shite it was tough! That damned castle...seems we know where the line has been drawn.

[mongoman]

It was one incredible firefight. We talked about it all night. Talk about a friggin meat grinder!!
M

[mac]

I'm new to all this, so my thoughts mean spit. I went through the samething in paintball, in the begining it was for fun and it was fun, but 3 years latter when I was on a Pro team traveling all over the U.S. and practicing everyweekend it be came a job. This is why I'm looking for something fun again. The best time I had was when I was on a Rookie team, there was structure and disapline without the hardcore pressure. I like the structure that THE SHOOTIST mentioned, its relaxed with everyone being able to choose his own place. But like I said I'm new and haven't seen everything from the inside yet.

[mongoman]

Hey Mac,
We are ALL new here local. Don't feel like you are all alone. Most of us were standing in the same spot you are about five months ago. No worries. BTW, did you get your guns?

M