Airsoft team forming in Dothan AL

[electricblu]

I like It although, I dont know if our team would be able to pick who would go. I know Ben would go because he is the leader. I would really like to go as well. But anyway, heres some of the topics we should discuss:

FPS limits
MED's
Age limits
Waiver Construction
Eyewear
blind firing
saw/lmg rules
what is to be allowed in cqb courses/fps limits

what am I missing? just post what you think.

[mongoman]

electricblu said:

I like It although, I dont know if our team would be able to pick who would go. I know Ben would go because he is the leader. I would really like to go as well.

Everyone would be welcome to come, but to actually get an agreement set forth, I don't think we need to have a completely open forum. However, all we are discussing is ultimately up to the players. We can only set forth a coherant proposal, and ask the airsofters to agree and follow the rule set. Then we can publish the proposal via forum, and basically set up a vote so all the team and their members can have a voice.

So, first, what is our overall objective? To organize a rule set that allows players to play at several sites all over the state. To promote and educate the public about airsoft and grow the sport.

We have always based our AEG limit on the according to doing a base upgrade. As a standard, a stock AEG with a 9.6v batt, a m120 spring, and a tightbore barrel will yield around 400-410 fps.
It also give the gun good range. Limiting aegs to 400 fps would preclude the small boost produced by TB barrel.

I gotta sleep now, I will type more tomorrow.

M

[vauxhall28]

i agree with blu lets get the team leaders/captains together and the owners of the fields together if possible and lets hash out the details, lets get airsoft standardized. mongo i have a dragunov that i want to hop up to around 550 fps and i know most want the high fps for thier weapons so coming up with an fps standard is key. if we can set forth a guideline / rule for the sport then i forsee our sport growing to be recognized on the national tournament level something i think the sport does not have yet. i am willing to travel for what ever meeting we decide to have or forum and perhaps it should be for team leaders/ founders after all it's the team leaders so set rules for thier teams lets get this thing going.

if we are serious about our sport it's time to pony up cowboys

[frijoleluna]

vauxhall28 said:

if we can set forth a guideline / rule for the sport then i forsee our sport growing to be recognized on the national tournament level something i think the sport does not have yet. i am willing to travel for what ever meeting we decide to have or forum and perhaps it should be for team leaders/ founders after all it's the team leaders so set rules for thier teams lets get this thing going.

if we are serious about our sport it's time to pony up cowboys

It won't happen. I am not sure you understand how airsoft changes DRASTICALLY around the country. In California, the games have different rules than in Alabama. Also, Milsim games are COMPLETELY different than the kind we play at Weaver. I think I can safely say that National rules will never happen. I don't think a national tourny will ever happen either. ESPECIALLY with a game that is based on honesty. I mean, let's be honest, airsoft is really a hobby. NOT a sport.

Realistically, I think we can get some guidelines for the state of Alabama going, but that's about it. Different tastes will always equal different rules and regs.

The east part of the country is known for "looser" games. By that, I mean that we allow High-cap mags, younger players to play in OPs, higher fps, etc. I like it this way and want to keep it this way. My seasoned team (and other airsoft veterans around us) feels the same way. Which is one of the reasons I will come to this gathering.

We are ponying up, but I want everyone to have realistic expectations.

[mateba]

Aren't you the optimist. I do agree with you, that we should focus on Alabama and more specifically AAV. But that doesn't mean we should strive for a "South-Eastern Airsoft Association." Airsoft is the new kid on the block but it is growing and for good reason.

30 years ago paintballers were in a similar situation but they are now nationally recognized as a recreational sport. A major difference between the two sports is the level of commitment that is required to play. You can't just go out and rent to play airsoft all day like you can for paintball. Such places do exist. Weaver could be next especially if Lenlock Hobbies gets involved. There are even college sanctioned airsoft teams. But normally You have to go loan from somebody at risk of fixing a broken gun or drop at least $150 on a gun you can feel confident with.

This would be different if there was a unified national voice for airsoft. I know airsoft is nappy right now but it wont always be. There is too much commercial influence for it not to catch on. Field rules are not the crucial issue. Its unity. Airsoft needs an organized voice to speak up for everyone who actually plays the game. If there isn't, airsoft will be lost piece by piece to a couple of kids that were screwing around and lost an eye with clearsoft when mom or dad wasn't looking. There is already legal problems in Oregon not to mention internationally.

If Dothan becomes the next addition to Alabama Airsoft Volunteers than we will be that much stronger. Its a step forward. We need national representation for Airsoft.

[mongoman]

I agree with Ben and Mateba. We need to be realistic in our expectations, however, we need to set ourselves to grow. So we plan for organizing the state, and then use that as a model. Personally, I don't care what they do in Cali, the chances of me playing there are minimum. However, that should not stop us from forming our own statewide league, and the first bunch of guys that want to join our coailition from GA or TN, then we use that as a base to expand the rules set. That is the main thing, we get them to sign on that they play by the rules we set forth. Since we have the internet, we will have practically no publishing cost, and we can have our own ezine for the the group at large.

We can coordinate games to run at different times, maximizing attendence for all groups, and work together to bring the sport first. (Need a name of course) It is a sport that we play, I like to call it MilSport. A phrase coined by the TFAT guys, it describes what we do. If I go out and run around, it is a sport. If it takes skill, and some are better suited to it than others, it is a sport. Now, combine the military aspects we do use(objective based scenario 90% of the time) then it becomes MilSport.

Now I know for the next few weeks, I am booked, everyday. If some of the interested parties can make it to crack wars, and stick around for a while Saturday night, then we should be able to have an informal meeting, and at least get a comphrensive overview of what we would like to accomplish on paper.

M

[savoy6]

god....this almost sounds like the SEA in it's first few months.....while i'm ingreement about coordination of games, i can't see how anyone is reinventing the wheel here....airsoft is a hobby of individualism....i say hobby because you can't call something a sport where you call yourself out....it's kinda like running down court,making the shot and then turning around and counting on the other team to say whether you made the basket or not.with the introduction of things like tournament and such with prizes or awards,you then put the honesty of the sport in jepardy because now a player has to make a choice between not calling a hit or possibly costing his team a "win".
as for national organization.....well,after more than 6 years in this,i can say it probably won't happen simply because groups won't be able to reach any type of agreement on FPS,MEDs,eye protection,playing style,etc.everyone out there has thier stuff tuned for their groups playing style and don't want to change......there was one group that was being put together by pikachoad(airsoftplayers.com) about 4 years ago that was working getting manufacturers,field owners and insurers on the same page for standards for eye protection,applicable laws,field rules,etc. but it fell to the initial groundswell of interest in the SEA.understanding a need to organize things in AL, i would say go with what mongo was talking about and get some rules hammered out for you guys to ALL go by....and then you have to get everyone to agree to all of them...this is pretty much what the guys in FLAairsoft and MN airsoft did...

oh and as an aside,...airsoft will never be able to go the same way that paintball did when it was threatened with being banned as a violent sport.(i.e. going to MX outfits and speedball)i'm sure former long term paintballers like fallout and urban6 would agree with me on this.this sport is just way too poitically incorrect to ever gain widespread public approval.i mean ,it has 15 years olds running around with assault weapons shooting at each other....lol.....comercial interest as ya'll term it will last only until the first lawsuit for a kid with airsoft gun getting shot by the cops.then they run for cover as fast as the NRA has on airsoft...

[mongoman]

I agree with a bunch of what you said 6. I always say airsoft players are like quail, easy to scatter. Seriously, I only think it needs to be a loose confederation, just a rule set, just an information network. I chose "volunteers" for the name of our group because basically you can't make folks do anything. It is just about gathering folks that have the fire to do more than dream. If we have three cities basically sign on to play by the rule set we come up with, then that will be enough for me. Bigger, better games is what I am after, that don't cost $500 in fees and travel expenses to go to.

I am excited about the progress we have made in the state in the last year, and I see our hobby/sport/ thingee., growing. I do no want our effort to produce another SEA, who has changed names from my understanding. I don't see the need for dues, and if there is no money, it makes things easier. I'm sure we can find a sponsor for the webspace, and we could take donations for the regestrations and such. THE LAST THING WE NEED IS ANOTHER AIRSOFT FORUM. If anyone suggest it, send them to the triangle of shame. I think there are quite enough, thank you very much.

M

[Rook]

Here, Here Mongo, well said. Savoy have you already forgotten the kid who got shot by police sniper when he held someone hostage with an airsoft gun. Airsofters didnt run for cover, granted it was just my team playing together around our area back when that happened. And the largest backlash we saw from that was that they raised the age to buy bb's at walmart and academy from 16 to 18. I think airsoft is dug in a little more than you give it credit for.

I do agree that airsoft wont be like tournament paintball b/c of the hit calling thing but that doesnt mean it couldnt be as big as paintball with OPs and games and such. Besides why would we want to copy paintball, we need to be different. I think everyone is getting a little off track with the politics of airsoft, which is bad. Airsoft shouldnt be about polotics it is our sport, its fun, we dont need to screw it up with political crap, damn politics, I hate politics. If we want to try to unite Alabama airsofters under one set of general guidelines lets do it. If we want to unite the whole country lets do it. And if it doesnt work? Who cares. Airsoft is something I love to do and whether or not we unite the state or the south east or the country I will still be playing and I am sure all of you will too. I think a good beginning starts one group at a time, so I would like the Steel City guys to adopt the field rules of 4/20 and that will be a fine start.

[ghost]

As far as FPS limits...Alot of people rather pay to upgrade not downgrade their guns. Set the 415 rule and leave it! Make it a rule to play CQB you MUST wear a padded type gear or such on the torso. If people dont want to do that then make everyone sign a waiver stating they play knowing the conditions and they are doing so at their own risk. It is a MILSPORT/MILSIM and therefore should be played out like one or to whatever the OPS should become of. People play the airsoft because of the fun and enjoyment of meeting people and making friends, getting to act like the Military without signing up (for some), experiencing the thrill of the combat situations and no one getting killed. Airsoft is a safe way to enjoy lighting someones ass up and not go to prison for it. Until now Alabama had nothing for Airsoft, I mean NOTHING, mongo and dave laid out a field for all of us to play and now we ARE getting a store, THE FIRST IN THE STATE....how many kids will leave wal-mart alone now that they can have something local to get the goods from...how many people do you think would want to agree to the rules set forth??? I'd say a pretty good bit would do what they were told so they can finally play in the game. My 2 cents worth now I'll shut the hell up....Thanks Dave/Mongo!!!

[savoy6]

Until now Alabama had nothing for Airsoft, I mean NOTHING,

guess the rally point guys in mobile 4-5 years ago (which is where TFAT developed out of) don't count....or the original B.A.R. team out of b'ham that held some good games and even had a major event down at dothan ,(think it was called copperhead road) either,or HARM out of huntsville.....yes the center of the state has been a dead zone for several years but that doesn't mean it didn't exist in ala. before ....

Savoy have you already forgotten the kid who got shot by police sniper when he held someone hostage with an airsoft gun. Airsofters didnt run for cover, granted it was just my team playing together around our area back when that happened. And the largest backlash we saw from that was that they raised the age to buy bb's at walmart and academy from 16 to 18. I think airsoft is dug in a little more than you give it credit for.

no i haven't forgotten ....nor have i forgotten the kid in florida that was killed with an AS gun that neary got the sport banned in the state.nor have i forgotten about the actions of municipalities in almost 14 states in the last year that have moved to put some sort of ban on airsoft within their juristiction,usually after an cop vs. AS confrontation.....which then gets hyped state-wide by a bored media looking for a story to run with.....

i think the idea of a loose knit confed of groups with a simple and clear ruleset is a great idea that shoud be acted on...just my 2 cents...it would just be easier to do at this point then anything heavier..

[mongoman]

All the press AS gets is bad. I haven't seen a piece yet that was positive.

I understand the perspective of the law enforcement officer. If I went running out in the street with my M4, I should be suprised if I get shot? Of course not.

If organizing oursleves in the state helps keep replicas legal in this state, then we need to do so. So, we keep it simple, we keep it fun, and we provide the information out there so we can grow the sport.

M

[charleynovember]

I don't have time to read through this whole thing but I will get back to it tonight I hope. Organize your state don't worry about the SE. My team is resistant to being absorbed by anything bigger we have been doing this a while we know what works and doesn't work. I have seen a couple upstarts that want to organize and the rule sets either don't make sense to us or we feel are dangerous. FPS and MED stand out to us. Any CQB should be with a detuned gun. 330 or less in any CQB environment is fairly standard over in GA it is fairly safe. You go into "The Town" at Athens or play down at SAC in Atlanta and 330 is what you go by. If it means changing to a back up then that is what you do. Shots at less than 10' sometimes 5' can do alot more damage. I'm here to have fun and play make believe not lose a tooth or get overly bloodied up. Stuff happens there are injuries we should all expect that but thier is a difference between occasional freak accidents and setting up for recurring unsafe incidents. I have high hopes for you guys over in AL I enjoyed coming over to play with you guys.

vauxhall28 ~

personally like shooting the hell out of someone till they call hit ahh inflicting as much pain with my dragunov as i can fella's i'm a sadist to a point i guess.

That is an interesting perspective....You mean when someone doesn't call out right? You don't just enjoy hurting your fellow players because you get off on it right?

[Tripps]

Hear, hear Charleynovember...

I've "muzzled up" on somebody indoors before and felt horrible (and it was just a stock CA). Engagements get awful close in CQB environments and I don't like making my friends bleed.

[mongoman]

One of the reason I am getting an MP40 is to keep it stock for my CQB.

What we do is rough and tumble, folks are gonna get hurt, it is just a matter, as CN said, not to make it a common thing due to a flaw in rules. Coming from the SCA, we had our share of cuts, blood, stitches, broke bones, and stuff, but it was uncommon due to the rule set. For me, when I gt pinged and it breaks skin, it is no big deal, I have had bruises that cover the entirety of my body. If you think getting shot with a bb up close hurts, let someone hit you for tonnage in the armpit with a stick of rattan. I could give you many accounts but that is neither here no there. All we can do is come up with a rule set that optimizes our chanes of not haveing an injury, and not castrate the sport/game/thingee.

We have always set FPS for close in at 350, because that is the FPS on most gas pistols. If there is a way to tune a pistol down, then I would be interested in learning.

Hurting for the sake of hurting folks. I am against it. If you run across someone not calling shots, and you shoot them until they bleed, you are merely bringing yourself to their level. For your own honor, call your shots, if a person shrugs shots, they are making themsleves look bad, and we are taking steps to ensure that those types of players do not come back, or if the incident is isolated, we impose sanctions. The proudest I have been of one of my team members was when BullFrog called his own teammate out after the guy shrugged shots. He didn't sit back and talk shit about the guy later, he didn't go complain to everyone but the guy, he confronted him. The player in question was reported. Life goes on. I personally will not tolerate someone screwing up our game. There is no sense in it.

I have said it before, I will say it again, before you come running up saying so and so is a cheater, ask yourself these questions.

Did I see the bb impact the player? Or did I shoot at him though a bunch of brush and trees and THINK I hit him.

Was it an adrenal packed situation? Sometimes when you are pumped, you don't feel things like normal.

Did I ask the player to call the shot?

Did I go talk to the person at the earliest possible time to get the issue in the open?

Give the other player the benefit of the doubt, give him a chance to defend his actions, and ask yourself, before you make an accusation, "AM I SURE?!". If you are, then go get a person on staff and report the issue. If it is at our field, we are all over it. I will stop a game in a heartbeat if I need to. I will tell someone not to come back if the the problem persist.

I have been accused of cheating. It was part of a bad situation, from a bad game, and I feel it was a retalitory thing, especially since I had been complimented by the refs for my fair play. It made me angry, because that is not my nature. Have there been times when I was tearing through the woods and may have missed something? Sure. That is when I yell at the the OPFOR, "Did you guys see anything hit me?" If they say, "I know I got you" I call it, go to the respawn. So the next time you KNOW someone is cheating because you saw the player in the trees and fired at him, consider this:

June 6th 1944 The US, England, and Canada mounted the largest invasion in the history of warfare. Our troops landed on open the beaches of Normandy that were zeroed for artillery, with overlapping heavy MG coverage along the entire beach. The troops were landing in wooden higgins boats that opened to the front. In most cases, they had to slog though chest deep water and surf to even reach the beach. Thousands died. My point? In an open area, with what amounts to shooting fish in a barrell, enough troops survived to assault the gun positions on the top of the cliffs, and take the beach. So ask yourself, is my CA m4 airsoft gun more accurate than an MG42? Is it not possible that you hit all around that person and missed?

Before you decide to bloody someone for not calling hit, you need to consider two things.
You are no better for the game than the guy cheating.
I catch you doing it at our field, you are gone.

Be sure of the situation, be sure of the person you are calling out, be sure of yourself, and always keep the moral high ground. The game requires it.

M