mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Feb 5, 2007 23:34:18 GMT -5
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Tripps
Sergeant
I'm a freakin' ninja!!
Posts: 155
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Post by Tripps on Feb 6, 2007 17:41:41 GMT -5
Well, Personally, a 450 fps. saw (249 or the like) would make me poop myself . The high ROF would make me cuss somebody in the most awful way. One or two shots, cool, but 20-30 in the same span of time!!! Hell no! And, for the most part, if you try to bang somebody from 20-40ft. away, you might get laughed at. I've only banged somebody when I had the barrel less then 2 feet away. All the other times I got shot. What I'm getting at, if somebody thinks they can get out of it, they will...and it might not be pretty. My wife banged somebody with the barrel litterally ON them and they turned and shot her in the face, leaving a very nasty bloody welt. This was clearly a violation, but you get my point? ;D Honestly, my OPINION is that any heavy ROF weapon should be left in the 350 or so range. My reasoning is (crapton of plastic + high fps. = one pissed off airsofter!). If you got a SAW vs a bolt action sniper rifle what would you choose? I'd even wonder if wire mesh goggles would hold up to something like that... I know I'd choose the saw and I KNOW I can't trust myself with that....my trigger control is...liberal!!! Just my two cents...
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Feb 6, 2007 18:07:09 GMT -5
Ooch! The bang rule does not look to be a sound defensive tactic. So in your opinion a high rate of fire is a major factor in classifying someone's gun in the support weapon role?
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Rook
Steel City Airsoft Member
We Will Put There Name To The Test
Posts: 270
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Post by Rook on Feb 6, 2007 21:34:09 GMT -5
On the bang rule: I have looked into it some before and i have found most major ops, Such as Irene (you can look on their website) only lets you use the bang rule if you about the 10 foot range and THEIR BACK IT TOO YOU. They say if you walk on someone that close and they are facing you, you cant just say bang because in high probability they will shoot you and you will shoot them and then both of you are mad and arguing. They say in that circumstance you should Parlay and both walk away. They also say you cant do it to multiple people b/c its not fair to run up behind a group wildly yell BANG BANG and calling them all out.
As far as the Squad Automatic Weapon, I beleive they should have a high rof and higher fps because thats their role. They have extra distance, power, and suppressive capabilites over the assault rifles in real combat, it should relate the same to airsoft. No one would lug around that big-ass M249 if its distance and Rof was the same as an MP5, theres no point then b/c you can just as easily get a drum mag for a Mp5 and then you got someone running around with a light gun with a high rof that has a shit-ton of bullets to waiste. That just my opinion though.
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Tripps
Sergeant
I'm a freakin' ninja!!
Posts: 155
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Post by Tripps on Feb 6, 2007 22:18:39 GMT -5
This is my opinion...I love voiceing it(God bless America!!!)! I mean no ill will, just debating here. ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, what is the point in a sniper rifle if a SAW can be allowed to shoot over 400 fps?
Typically, if your shooting 550 fps. with a .2, in a sniper rifle you use a .25-.30 for accuracy. A SAW tuned to 450 fps. would EASILY out-range a 550 fps. bolt action sniper rifle (because more-then-likely you'd still use a .2). Not to mention the amount of ammo difference! 10 vs 2000!
But, the good news for my side of the argument, to tune a M249 to 450 fps. requires SERIOUS cash for durabilty upgrades! Most people don't want to spend a grand and then add another 400 or so dollars on parts(unless your dino ;D).
And (cause I love doin this broken record part), if we're trying to go for a "close to the real world" aspect,we could all use lo-cap magazines. And, the M249 uses a 5.56 round, we could allow M4, M16,and AK-74's to go to 450 fps. cause they use the same caliber rounds!
Maybe we should just start uping fps limits for sniper rifles...
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Feb 7, 2007 1:09:38 GMT -5
You are right! In the real world application most LMGs would use 5.56 and the performance of the 5.56 would not change. The gun might spray, or alter the ballistic in some other way but that should not reflect on the potential of the round.
So, SAWs and AEGs should not be on par with each other and limited to a 350 FPS cap. A SAW has high rate of fire and a "crapton" of ammo. How fast is this ROF, 10... 20... 30rps?
Does an long rifle with a C-MAG count as a SAW? (tricky question?) What if they don't have a "high" rate of fire?
Preferably, should a squad be limited to only one guy with SAW?
A question I have heard over and over; If someone violates you MED are they fare game? In a scenario (regardless of MED this could apply to anyone), John Rambo is aware of your location and charges you with his M4 to a distance <40ft. Should you pop him were he stands? Retreat to 40ft before firing? Stop firing the SAW and engage him with a pistol?
thanks for all the input
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Rook
Steel City Airsoft Member
We Will Put There Name To The Test
Posts: 270
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Post by Rook on Feb 7, 2007 10:09:26 GMT -5
I say its just like Saint rolling into the bunker last game, If your brave enough to roll in a bunker and start shooting people at close range, you should expect to be shot close, I dont know of many airsofters who would just let the guy shoot him cause of MED. So if Rambo is charging you and breaks the MED range, not your problem he already broke it, I say you pop him.
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Tripps
Sergeant
I'm a freakin' ninja!!
Posts: 155
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Post by Tripps on Feb 7, 2007 14:38:24 GMT -5
I believe as long as you don't put a drum mag on a mp5k any thing could count as a SAW. Truth be told, those bastards are heavy, if you can cut some weight, why not. For realism sake, the guy with a hi-cap would be the real world support gunner. Go for the AK/drum mag combo!!!
MED's are put in place to stop people from getting hurt. A SAW at 350 fps. wouldn't elicit a med over 15-20 ft. it's the higher end speeds that add more distance to you MED. Hence a sniper rifle having a 50ft.+ MED. IF a person presses your MED it is YOUR responsability as a player to pull your pistol/(low powered/stock)AEG to not hurt them.
When I first started playing, I rushed a bunker, and I was politely lit the hell up by the three people in there. I knew what I was doing but the person that raked my front (left leg all the way up to my face) with his AEG (stock classic army m15a4) pissed me off. It wasn't cause I was mad at them, just it was my reaction to the 10 bloody welts on my shoulders, legs, arms and face. It hurt and I wanted to pistol whip somebody...very un-sportsman like on my part. The point is, if MED's had been observed, tempers wouldn't have flaired, and the day still would have been fun (and much less bloody).
Truth be told, you guys have the highest fps. limits I've seen in this area. Alot of people top them off at 350-400 for all AEG'S and sniper rifles can be bolt action only.
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Feb 7, 2007 15:42:21 GMT -5
lol, yeah Id probably pop him too!
i like your explanation of the relationship between FPS and MED, tripps.
"For realism sake, the guy with a hi-cap would be the real world support gunner. Go for the AK/drum mag combo!!!", tripps.
So a SAW is mostly defined, above anything else, by its ability to hold a abnormally large amount of ammunition in one magazine. ROF is preferred but that comes along with durability. Which in this case would be cheaper to buy an actual SAW.
I know airsoft is meant to be fun and the rules are in place to provide a fun safe experience. I have been getting technical about the rules because I think they leave a lot up for interpretation beyond "don't hurt someone". like Rook had mentioned there was a previous situation were someone knowingly entered a base full of people and got shot. Who would be at fault? this is similar to your experience. I'm assuming they shot you with AEGs but besides the unnecessary amount of shots you would not say you were responsible for the MED violation. Would that not give you a distinct advantage over people with SAWs? Well, at least in the 10ft between the MEDs.
My gun is a G3 with a c-mag, but nothing fancy. It shoots around 350-360 and has a moderate ROF for an AEG. I haven't checked but no were near 20 or 30 rps. You might remember it if you were at operation bay of pigs II. At the time I had a wood fore grip on it. I love my gun and Ive had it for 5 years. Ill probably never get rid of it. I have allowed it to grow parallel with my airsoft experiences. Although, at the time of purchase I thought a c-mag would just mean more BBs. I understand that it is ammo capacity that is the kicker. If I want to play at 400 fps or at a 30ft MED i need G3 hi-caps (500rnds). ROF is more of a personal decision due to wear n' tare on your gun, because a M249 goes through just as many parts over time as I would if threw a SystemA hi-speed motor set in my gun.
thanks for all the advice mateba
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Rook
Steel City Airsoft Member
We Will Put There Name To The Test
Posts: 270
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Post by Rook on Feb 7, 2007 15:54:39 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you on that Tripps, where you rushed the bunker, that was your decision to make to rush the bunker and if you are inside their MED they are inside yours also (in most cases), you cant hold the other guys responsible when you bum rush them. Many times especailly with a lower med like 10-20ft you dont have time to pull a back-up thats slung behind your back, and alot of people dont carry backups anyway. We had a case where my buddy was sniping one day with a 640 fps sniper rifle and a kid with two springers bum-rushed him from about 15ft, he had a shoulder harnessed pistol he tried to reach for it but didnt have time so he capped the kid with his sniper from point blank and the guy had a bleeding welt in his stomach. Sometimes its all you can do. Now i know thats different from and AEG and i in no way condone to shooting someone that close with a high powered sniper but, if im rushed from very close im just gonna pop whoever it is that was that was dumb (or arrogant) enough to rush me, because my back-up is an Mp5k slung behind me and its not a really quick process to get it out and shoot. You make a conscious decision to rush someone and you have to take the consequences of YOUR actions and not rely on someone else to switch to a low powered gun.
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laughingtree
Recruit
Have Money.... Will Travel....
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Post by laughingtree on Feb 7, 2007 21:29:28 GMT -5
Hey everyone. I know I don't talk much on this forum, but I felt a need to chime in on this one. Regardless of who has the "responsibility" for someone getting hurt, above all it rests in the hands of those running the field and/or game. This debate has rung on pretty much every single forum I have seen in the airsoft community across the world. It comes down to a few very pertinent facts:
1. The US has THE highest FPS limits in the world. For example: in Europe, anything over 1 joule (aprox. 300fps) is illegal. This is because many of the governments then consider the weapons as real guns.
2. All of the really big, organized games cap their FPS limits at 400 at the very most. For example: Mind Game Productions, a big organizer in south Florida, caps their AEGs at 350.
3. The reason sniper rifles are allowed up to 550 (in most places) is because they are single shot only. This prevents people from accidentially running across the field while rounds are in the air while forcing the sniper to be careful with his or her shots. If I was allowed a 450fps fully automatic weapon that has thousands of rounds... I am not going to pay attention to where I am shooting it.
On top of the three rules above, we have to find a cap to the safety issues. If people start pushing the envelope a bit more, what's to stop it from going higher and higher? As a player, each of us is responsible for our own actions. If that means switching to a lower powered gun so that I don't seriously hurt a friend, I'll do it. If that means REQUIRING that players obey MED limits on fields where I have sway, I'll do that too. This is a game that is supposed to be fun. While I enjoy the comraderie, sport, excitement, and feel of airsoft, I still enjoy my teeth and my face being intact.
In addition, if we were to count realism in on this game to the point that ya'll are talking about with the SAWs, then no one can hide behind a tree, wood wall, etc and not get shot by my M700 Police Issue clone. The real thing is made to go through these things. ;-) pttth.
But, its all up to each of us to decide what we want to do. For me, I choose to play at fields that have the sort of fps limits that I agree with. For someone else, it might be playing at a field that doesn't allow semi-auto sniper rifles. Others may not care at all. I guess what I'm saying is that this debate is a really common one, and I wanted to bring up some points that hadn't been touched on yet.
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Feb 7, 2007 21:43:07 GMT -5
thanks for the input laughingtree! you have valid points, and I had no idea about the international FPS limits. they suck! I seems to me that I have two options. 1 buy two high cap mags and stop using my $150 c-mag or 2 buy a pistol and a propane adapter.
hmmm, thats a tuffy. time to buy a pistol! ;D
anyone got a socom nbb, tm 5" hi-cappa or a ksc g34 they want to sell?
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Tripps
Sergeant
I'm a freakin' ninja!!
Posts: 155
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Post by Tripps on Feb 7, 2007 21:58:45 GMT -5
Thank you Mateba! I'm glad your pickin up what I'm puttin down! ;D I saw the pics of your wooden g3, it's really sweet!
Rook- in the rush the bunker, I only had pistols (I played a four pistol set-up for the first few months I played) that all chrono under 300 fps. One person pulled thier sidearm, one shot me in the neck with their sniper rifle, and the fellow I rushed lit me up.
And what the hell is he using that shoots 640!?!?! PLEASE tell me that was a typo!
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Feb 7, 2007 22:21:44 GMT -5
Sorry about that tripps! ;D I am just checking all my bases. If im going to play the role I ought to know it. Thanks for baring with mateba
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Rook
Steel City Airsoft Member
We Will Put There Name To The Test
Posts: 270
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Post by Rook on Feb 7, 2007 23:17:49 GMT -5
No man, Not a typo, really the gun wasnt even that nice. it was just a kjw m700 that had a tightbore and had been tuned. Those guns have inconsistent shots but with a freshly filled gas clip on a hot summer day the gun cronoed all the way up to 660. But its average was lower. He had it cronoed at airsoft atlanta when they put in the tightbore, and he acted like the gun was a god. This was the first sniper we had, had on the team so we really didnt know how serious of an FPS that was, We just kinda thought that was normal for a sniper. But you should have seen the hit on my buddys stomach. It was bleeding freely, and he took the shot through his shirt.
( And hey, i wasnt picking on you or anything, i was just debating the issue. I have come to realize me and my teams normal play habits are alot more rag-tag than alot of the guys here. We dont have any MED for example, so this issue must just not hit as close to home with me as it does with others. Im just use to getting blasted point blank trying to grab flags i guess ;D.)
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