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Post by mongoman on Jun 10, 2007 13:29:54 GMT -5
I have been PMed about our Feildrifle MED. The guys is GA are saying they might not come back to AEG @ 415 w/ 30'MED and Snipers @ 600 w/ 100'MED. Should these change? Mongo, what do you think? Need a little more info. If guys from GA, do you mean BlackJack? What was the suggested MED? Suggested FPS? Also, the hottest gun chronoed was 380 or so this weekend. So, if they don't like our rules, they won't come back? That is thier right. While I am not about purposely trying to exclude anyone, we did make an effort to let the folks from GA know we were meeting, and asked for their input. Would have loved to have them there, but no one showed. I was told that Black Jack would NEVER join an organization such as we were proposing, and I asked if we could join them, and use their ruleset. No response. I understand folks are busy, not trying to be a dick or anything, but WE ASKED THEM TO HELP AND PARTICIPATE IN THE SESSIONS, AND HAVE ASKED FOR INPUT SINCE. I have no clue why someone would pm you and say they weren't coming back if we played under the rules proposed. So, if they are unwilling to discuss the rules in open forum, didn't come participate in the drawing of the rules, and did not respond when asked, what else can we do, and should we let our rules be dictated to us by folks that may come to two or three games a year? No, and besides, THESE ARE PROPOSED RULES!! Nothing is written in stone, and as far as I am concerned, the majority of the folks that gave enough of a damn to attend the meeting should not be overruled by someone who is not discussing the issue in open forum, and did not bother to show up when the rules were put down. If I honestly felt that 285fps AEGs and a 100 med were playable, I would say lets go with that. I just don't feel it is, and the range on the guns is limited as it is. 600 fps Sniper rifles has always been too high in my opinion, I always said around 550fps. I do not agree with the 450 Support weapon, as it makes no sense to me, why give up 70' of med for 35 fps? You don't get the range to make up for it, and it puts a super hot AEG on the field. Just my opinions, and as I said, not trying to be a dick, but if our proposed rules are to be discussed, then let them be discussed here. Why do you have lower fps, why would you not come back, why would you refuse to play under the rules proposed? How do we fix it, what would your suggestions be, etc. I feel we can all be reasonable, so post the info and let's see what we are talking about, and how far apart we are on the rules before we discuss changes. M |
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Post by valack on Jun 10, 2007 13:42:36 GMT -5
I have yet to play at any game.In paintball everyplace had different laws to go by for that field after a while you know the rules of each field you play at allot and play by those rules.Everyones rules will differ its a part of the game some fields have no FPS limit unless it is CQB then they are still high compared to most other fields rules.But I do agree with mongo if some people don't show up and or stat they wont come back they are the ones hurting the sport as most teams,players,Field owners talk to each other and find a middle ground for base rules then each field will have its own home rules.So please if your not going to work things out don't talk negative about anyone or place,I'm not saying anyone has but it can go that way fast as mongo said not to be a dick but if your not coming back thats sad to see but don't expect rules to change if you don't plan on playing there.
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Post by etherrider on Jun 10, 2007 15:21:31 GMT -5
Like Mongo said....what was proposed was the first run at some good rules....nothing written in stone. I would hate to think that they would feel that their input in not welcome. In fact the sport here in the WHOLE SE is not quite big enough and we will likely see coalitions (if you will) from multi-states.
I think TN and FL have the larger pop of players....but can't we all just get along and love one another....IT MIGHT BE MAGIC!!!!! (sorry couldn't resist that pun!)
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Post by charleynovember on Jun 10, 2007 17:30:02 GMT -5
I should put the kaboosh on this right away...My PM was simple.. "Are you guys all set on your FPS limits? Alot of the GA people are leary about coming back to 600fps sniper rifles and 415FPS AEG's I do like the CQB limit of 350 and 30ft MED minimum though. You and Mongo please let me know if you decide to do a Nam or WW2 game sometime this year. " My follow up pm was also I thought not as heavy as you guys think it was? " I don't think you should change your rules to suit us man. After the tooth chipping incident some of the guys are just not anxious to play with snipers at 600fps or AEGs and SAWs at over 400fps. You should work the rules for the people that play at your field 2-4 times a month don't worry about us over here in Georgia. If you had a game I was just dying to play like Nam or WW2 I would wear a full face mask and drive on over " I hope that clears everything up guys. I didn't attend your meeting because one my work schedule sucks and two I'm from Georgia not Alabama and like I said above you guys should work the rules around what you guys want not us. I passed on the info about contacting you Mongo, I'm sorry if he didn't get back to you. Yes TBJ is not interested in joining the Alabama Airsoft Group. We also don't belong to Florida Airsoft or the South Carolina Airsoft Association either but we have played in all three states and had a fairly good time and met new and interesting people in each state. I don't think a group like Southeast Airsoft Orginization or a national group is right for us right now either? WE don't mean any offense by it what so ever guys. Have I mentioned that I am interested in a Nam or WW2 game?  PS: I thought I had told you to feel free to use any all or some of our rules verbatum if you liked Mongo? Or mixed to suit your needs? That is what I had intended to convey to you I am sorry if that is not what I did convey man. Carry on i'll keep lurking.... |
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Post by mongoman on Jun 10, 2007 17:37:52 GMT -5
Right on November, I was not pissed or anything. What are the fps limits in GA on AEG's? Like I said, I thought the sniper rifle section was a little hot at 600fps.
THis is the crazy part, the "teeth incidents" as I call them started a few weeks back and it just keeps happening. The kicker is, the teeth incidents, from what I can tell, have all come from stock 350 fps and lower guns. What to do? I don't feel lowering the fps will make a diff.
The 415 fps comes from a combination of the the m120 spring and tbore to a stock gun. Usually comes in under 415, but that is the standard we based the rules on.
Please, suggestions, please.
Would you like to host a wwII event here, huh, would ya, please?
M
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Post by charleynovember on Jun 10, 2007 17:38:32 GMT -5
Also as a note I PM'ed the wrong fellow I am sure Mateba doesn't know me from adam. I thought I was PMimg someone else.
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Post by charleynovember on Jun 10, 2007 17:51:19 GMT -5
While I find that 350 for CQB is acceptable because as you say some pistols shoot 350 or below. Chuck the owner of Georgia Airsoft had a tooth chipped from a TM AK shooting right at 268FPS. I should know it was my AEG. That shows that freak incidents do happen however we have very few incidents of teeth getting chipped. 400 FPS with a plus minus of 5 FPS I think is very acceptable. I have done test that show the difference between an AEG shooting 285FPS and one shooting very close to 400FPS is only about 10 feet farther difference at range. And it is alot more abuse on your mechbox. What size battery you use should not have any effect on your FPS your ROF yes but not your FPS. I really do think 550 FPS is more than enough for a sniper rifle and that comes from someone that has owned and used one. I think more important than 50FPS is making sure that those that use themn are mature responsible people that can be sure of what 100 feet is and is not!  It would be so much nicer if you ran the WW2 game and I did jack crap but come play We (Savoy, Fallout, myself) are thinking of asking about it once you get more set up and insurance at your field though. These are Chucks Safety Rules please have a look and see if you like. They are similar to what you already have though guys. s176595924.onlinehome.us/teamblackjack/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=150 |
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Post by savoy6 on Jun 10, 2007 23:09:20 GMT -5
the other issue to think about is liability......i can hear the collective groan going out right now....lol...but please bear with me...
first off ..i like the anniston field...it has some really good potential and can be a real asset to the sport in the southeast.i also like the folks running things there as well...great bunch of folks that are interested in making it a great experience for all players...that's becoming unusual in this sport in the last year or two...
after working to try and get insurance on the field that we were using in florida, it was a real eye opener as to how expensive it is and how tort law constitutes liability in personal injury cases.basically..just about anything can be construed as creating an "unsafe condition"...which renders a waiver like what everyone usually uses worthless....if an "unsafe conditon" can even be remotely possible ,that's all a jury needs in a civil liability case.whether it's a person being let onto the field with a gun over FPS limits,or not having every hazardous area marked, or open sided safety/shooting glasses being used.....i just would not want to see the whole thing come to a halt because of the field owner or game organizers catching a case......especially given the litigeous nature of folks today....
my point is that the field rules need to be geared towards safety....not what folks have their guns upgraded to.personally, i think that given the fact ..as stated in the field guide i was given at my first game....that the field is,for the most part, CQB close the FPS could stand to come down to the 380-400 range.the only places on the field that i have been shooting at folks at more than 25-30+ feet is the roads themselves and the resevoir area. now that area is being closed in with a town which pretty much leaves only the roads and the edges of the res (most of which is still off limits right?)to go past the 30' MED.i think the high rate of "tooth incidents" is more from close shots that may not be seen as such that it is from anything else.it's the only thing that fits what you are describing and that has alot to do with the physical nature of the field more than the players themselves.it also shows that alot of folks may be unsure of how to judge MEDs while moving,under fire,etc.safety AND fun need to be the main concerns here....
some suggestions....
fps- 380-400 for aegs and 550 for snipers....all done with .20s.this needs to be a stringently done chrono with staff loading .20s and putting the rounds through the chrono.this is the starting point for field safety and is not something to be short sheeted on....the utah scene isn't much older or more organized then the AL one.they have fields with a lot more open spaces,hence their higher fps limits for greater range....at least that's the theory.using their rules as an example is an apples and oranges comparison.
eye protection-ditch the safety/shooting glasses.on two occasions while using them i've had rounds come into the glasses from the side after i instinctively turned away from the impact of the first rounds of a burst from the side.i've also seen the same thing happen with others on another 5 occasions when we played using them in FL.it's one of the reasons that i went to goggles.that and the fact that i think anniston may be one of the very few places left that allow them.i can't think of a single large field or major event producer that allows them..and for good reason.
i really liked the "mission statement" that you guys have at the front of the rules.....sounds good to me.
now ...the part that is going to get me alot of flak...lol...
i think that the statment may want to address the issue of "painsofting"..something i've seen creeping into the sport over the last year or so..basically ,it's folks that want to run a hot gun just to hurt people....i've seen it at OIJ spring 06 and i've heard that it was even more prevalent at the fall OIJ.i've also seen the attitude creep into local games i've been to in the last year.
when i first started in the hobby in 2001, i was in it as a hobby for me.then later my stepson got involved and i had to consider him when i played.so when i moved i had to find a place that would allow him to play along with me and the guys at GA airsoft were very welcoming to both of us..as were Mongo and co. when we went there for the first time....which was also a game where,for the first time in awhile we were both opened up on the arms by someone using a 400+ gun at less than 15-20 feet.now i'm used to getting lit up...it happens...but when i pointed out the med i was told that the whole field was CQB close and basically given the attitude that we needed to "cowboy the f%$k up"....i play this to have fun with my fellow players..not injure folks....this whole "harder than thou " thing needs to get nixed.
as for the WW2/Korea game....i'd be up for helping Mongo and AAV put a test game day together.that way we could try out the semi rules we use over at chucks and see how everyone likes them.then you can just show up as germans dan...lol...
Vietnam would reguire the least changes for most players and would be fun as well....
just my .02...and i'm really glad that mongo is working to keep this discussion as a "work in progress".....
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thefutpres
Private
I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. -Winston Churchill
Posts: 16
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Post by thefutpres on Jun 11, 2007 5:07:34 GMT -5
I have been looking into getting that Echo 1 DMR, so i would like to try and fill that spot eventually.
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Tripps
Sergeant
I'm a freakin' ninja!!
Posts: 155
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Post by Tripps on Jun 11, 2007 16:04:00 GMT -5
Savoy, November, I have to say I agree with every word of in your posts (even the ww2/korea/veitnam parts!).
It's seems every time I've posted about high fps limits I get the "quityerbitchen" rigamiro. So, I gave up, that and the 6 hour drive is the reason I didn't show despite the invite.
I mean, really 450 on a SAW?!?! Since when did one of the highest rate of fire weapons become a DMR?
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Jun 11, 2007 20:00:27 GMT -5
There is no intention of promoting "painsofting." If these limits allow too much of a possibility for injury then we should change them. I see a lot of talk about FPS without even a mention of MED. MED makes a huge difference. Please refer to FPS in relation to MED, it makes this subject a lot easier to follow. I suggested 416-460FPS for support roles. I think this will be more realistic and encourage more realistic tactics. They were given a 100 foot MED. We increased it from 40 to 100 and gave them an additional 45 FPS, whats the hubbub? I have seen many field restrictions play 550 at 50 feet for snipers, this is twice that. The snipers are at 100 feet too. The point of having the higher FPS is to use a heavier round to improve grouping and effective range. www.radiant8.com/airsofttrajectory/ (this is an interesting website, I'm posting it just as an example and visual aid) SAWs should be back players shooting over the assaulting force to keep heads down. Why would you increase MED for just ROF? We have not placed any restrictions for ROF on any other role. What about a 30rps CQB gun, do they get an +MED? Their BBs wont be any more effective than their comrades just more of them. This may be unnecessary to say. I promoted the idea and I'll defend it but I'm not trying to get anyone angry. If I have lets just talk about it. I don't want anyone to leave the discussion because they are frustrated. It is important to come to an understanding of one another. mateba |
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Post by savoy6 on Jun 11, 2007 20:18:14 GMT -5
my point was that the physical nature of the field doesn't support the stated MEDs...because of how close you are when you engage folks in all but a few areas of the field,the snipers and support gunners would have to move back to stay out of the MED and then they can't do their jobs due to field of fire and visibilty issues...what usually happens is that folks open up on enemy as soon as they see them...i mean ,whats the point in having that saw if you can't use it because you have to keep backing out of an active fire fight to keep a MED? it's been my experience that most players won't leave their teamates on those grounds....
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Post by mongoman on Jun 11, 2007 20:22:11 GMT -5
I am just not basially comfortable with a 450 fps aeg on the field. At all. I trust you to use it wisely Matt, but what about the newbie that show up with one. We put him through school, he agrees, and goes on lights someone up at 20 feet. I just don't see having them on the field, but again, my two cents.
550 on sniper rifles is all I am hip to. My comparison is always an .45 automatic. Standard ball ammo is 785fps. Blows big holes in people. 550 is plenty hot and only needs to be in the hands of an experienced player.
The ONLY reason I raised my personal fps bar to 415 was because of the basic upgrade I have mentioned before.
That being said, I would feel safer in my armor charging five hundred screaming maniacs with sticks in their hands ready to knock the crap out me than be on a field with SAWs at 450 fps with new folks coming in all the time.
M
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Jun 11, 2007 22:18:02 GMT -5
Not to split hairs but, Mongo, you are comparing a 14.9 gram object to a .20g object the amount of energy required to move both at the same speed is very different.
I thought you wanted 415+ at 100'? We even walked the distance out.
I agree that the MEDs will be tough at Weaver due to the terrain. A Support player could not be effective alone and would be forced to be in a group otherwise their MED would be violated almost immediately.
I appreciate you trusting me Mongo. I would try my best to recognize and uphold my MED. I understand that even if someone charges me, I cant shoot even if they are asking for it. You are right about the newbie situation. It would be horrible if someone got lit up at that close of a range with 450FPS. If that kid passed "Sniper School" and pulled that crap he could get thrown out. Thats the point of the training.
What should the FPS limits be?
415FPS for all full-auto AEGs?
Are snipers back to 550FPS with a 50' MED?
mateba
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Post by charleynovember on Jun 11, 2007 22:58:54 GMT -5
Again just for suggestion you make up your own rules guys I obviously won't be at as many games as you but I feel the following is safe. 400FPS any AEG including SAWs(I wouldn't tell someone thay couldn't play with something coming in at 405 just to please watch themselves and shooting close. anything above 405 would be a no go.)30' MED 550FPS sniper rifles Semi/bolt action. 100' MED and they need to go through some training and prove they can estimate 100' within 10'. In other words ask them to stand still you walk away from them when they feel you are 100' they ask you to stop if you are somewhere between 90 and 110' then they pass. If you don't do it that way they will just over estimate everytime and that doesn't prove the can estimate range for jack. 30' MED outside the CQB areas switch to something shooting 350FPS or below in buildings or in obvious CQB areas. You can't avoid close shots in a Town. These are safety issues only and not meant to kill anyones enjoyment of the game. Without milsim mid/lo cap rules there is really no safe advantage for a SAW on the field. I understand the MED's however and would be ok with a 450FPS SAW at a decent MED like maybe 50' and the owner would need to go through the same training to be able to estimate range accuratley. I also would not allow a crapload of SAWs. 1 per squad for your scenario days or less. I could live with this sort of ruleset. You would need to be on the spot with good chrono in the morning(have it staffed by someone and they can put a colored ziptie on every gun that chronos that day so an easy visual check shows who has chronoed.) Have a program to certify Snipers/ DM's and SAWs with an ID card if you can on SAFETY don't worry about a high falutin sniper course where people must pass field craft exams and stalk people. Screw that just make sure they are safe and responsible. |
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It would be so much nicer if you ran the WW2 game and I did jack crap but come play 
