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Post by darksabre76 on Jun 12, 2007 22:34:59 GMT -5
how bout this for an ideer... we let the head people... you know the ones at weaver... make the decisions... and if you doing like it tough... you can either conform or not play... that simple...
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Post by mongoman on Jun 12, 2007 23:39:58 GMT -5
how bout this for an ideer... we let the head people... you know the ones at weaver... make the decisions... and if you doing like it tough... you can either conform or not play... that simple... I don't agree here bro, it needs to be everyone brainstorming to keep the game safe, but make it as exciting and fun as possible. Savoy Six and Charlie November are experienced players, and we need to listen to them. I REALLY want to get well and go play at the BLack Jack Field as soon as I can, so I can learn from these folks. You guys who know me understand I have only been on the airsoft scene for a year and a few months, my organizational skills come from years in the SCA. I have a lot to learn, and I am not afraid to examine what we have proposed. I want to hear what everyone has to say, because in the end, everyone who signs on will have to make a decision based on what they feel is right. Then everyone still has the right to come play, regardless if they are part of the AAV or not. This is all about what rules we will play with across the state, and can clearly be changed by the field owner if they don't like something. Not trying to come down on you Jeff, or anyone else, I just want to convey the real need for discussion here. Finally, I am willing to take a role in this organization, but not head it up. I have a bunch of stuff going on right now, and do not feel I can adequately do so right now. So, please, let's all discuss these issues openly and honestly, but politely. EVERYONE has and needs a voice in this process. M
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Post by darksabre76 on Jun 12, 2007 23:53:50 GMT -5
well i tried to help... guess it kinda back fired... but i get where you are coming from mongo...
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electricblu
Steel City Airsoft Member
A life without fear is a short but glorius one.
Posts: 344
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Post by electricblu on Jun 12, 2007 23:59:25 GMT -5
Look guys im not trying to start riff raff. I do value the experience as I have only been into serious airsoft for alittle around a year. I know you guys have a system that works and that is good. I just think that the extra FPS is so slight that it really isnt more dangerous. I just think it allows more wiggle room thats all. I know theres frustration but hell if everyone agrees right off the get go then the apocalypse is coming. I understand what the georgia guys are saying.
When i mean that hey that shoots so much further I mean a stock gun versus a gun with an m120. Most guns shoot around 300fps out of the box regardless of ratings. 300fps and 400fps are very diffrent in range and like matt says, they allow use of heavier bb's. But when someone is going to upgrade their gun, just a basic assault weapon, they are going to opt for the m120 over the m100 every time. Its not about pain and recklessness, I re-read my post and realized that it sounded more like quiturebitchin rather than hey i dont think 415 is noticibly more dangerous than 400. I personally would like to be able to tap 410 if I upgrade my m16 that way I can use my .23s and get the max accuracy and keep the range.
The thing that makes this arguement such a stale mate i think is the fact that we dont require full face protection. Im just so against it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinon, and thats why we have this thread going. 415 is what I would like the limit to be and thats my opinon. 400 is what the georgia guys want and thats theirs, we asked for theirs and we got it, dont get riled up guys. The only way we are gonna make this work is to remain friendly, and right I dont think that Black Jack and Steel City are off on the right foot. Lets remain friendly, i really would like to see this work.
*EDIT* An after thought just hit me, instead of just trying to hammer my point in, i should ask questions as well to keep the discussion progressing. Savoy and November, we have had the teeth incidents with only stock guns, what is your primary concern for the higher end guns? What makes you worry about the 415 instead of the 350 for cqb? Not trying to sound like an ass or offend you, this is a serious question, to keep the topic moving forward instead of backwards.
Also who would be opposed to moving the sniper fps back to 550? I dont see any problem with that, i think it would be just as good.
Let me know guys
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Post by savoy6 on Jun 13, 2007 15:13:54 GMT -5
Savoy and November, we have had the teeth incidents with only stock guns, what is your primary concern for the higher end guns? others have said they weren't stock guns but not that upgraded....what people are describing here only makes sense in that we have the following facts.... 1-people are losing teeth and parts of teeth at a good clip..(bad pun...lol).... 2-the guns are either stock or under 380 in upgrades.. 3- other fields in the area that are as active as yours and with as many or more players aren't having this rate of injuries. this leads me to think this may be a playing style or attitude issue more than anything.i think ,from the items i listed above that folks might be just taking the availiable shot even at close range without any thought of or opportunity to do any safety kills...something that hasen't even been discussed here.safeties are something that are done on a reular basis ,even in CQB environments, at most other fields but ihave yet to see any in the 4 times ive been to anniston. as for the problem with fps....in CQB specific fields in the SE let's see what the fps linits run... S.A.C. in atlanta-325 fps for both pistols and AEGs Renegade Airsoft team field in FL, mixed CQB and woods- ALL GUNS WILL BE CHRONOGRAPHED WITH 6mm .20g BBs PRIOR TO GAMEPLAY.
ALL GUNS ARE SUBJECT TO BEING RANDOMLY CHRONOGRAPHED.
No fire zone within 5ft. There is a 5ft bang out rule. No limits on stock guns or sidearms (280fps or within reason). See rule 1. Sidearms with velocity greater than 350 fps are subject to a 20ft. minimum firing distance AEG’s are limited to 350fps (within reason). Sniper rifles will be semi-auto or bolt action only and are subject to shoot 550fps with a 50ft shot limit. Snipers must carry a sidearm.
airsoft CQB in VA,a cqb only place- 300 fps (.2g bbs) limit on all electric guns being used in the facility. 335 fps (.2g bbs) limit on all gas pistols being used in the facility. 3. Full face protection is required, and must be approved be approved by Airsoft CQB mindgames productions in FL,one of the largest game producers in the SE....and no under 18 players..... Velocity Limits 350 fps limit with .2 gram plastic BB for all full-auto weapons with a 10' no shoot distance. 550 fps limit with .2 gram plastic BB for all semi-auto sniper weapons with a 100' no shoot distance. Weapons will be chronographed during registration and banded as approved for game-play. Players caught with hot guns or guns that were not chronographed prior to the game will be removed from the game with no refund given.
justa few examples......there are other but i keep getting timed out on here...lol... also mindgames has a realy good explanation of the bang out/ safety kill process... Bang and Surrender Rules In close-quarter situations, no shooting should occur at less than 10 feet. If you come up close behind someone or walk up on an enemy and your weapon is pointed at them, you may call BANG or SURRENDER. All players MUST COMPLY with the call. If both players have ready weapons and call each other out at the same time, both are out or they may back away by mutual consent.
If BANG is called, the player is considered to have been killed outright. No wounding rules will apply at that close range. If SURRENDER is called, the player must sling his weapon and place his hands on his head or behind his back. He is now a POW and may be lead by his captor back to a remote holding area.
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Post by eliminator on Jun 13, 2007 15:34:53 GMT -5
My issue isn't so much about the fps, but where and when you shoot somebody. Why should somebody be shot from 5 feet away or be shot in the face if they don't have to? I think the new kids on the field and in this sport don't have a sense of safety. That includes shooting your guns in the parking lot or taking off your goggles while you're on the field at the end of a game. I've played at various OPs in GA and FL and the field owners/organizers all seem to agree that if you're gonna shoot somebody, try not to shoot them in the head or at close range. Now, you can go back to your discussion of fps. BTW, I'm the other player that was shot from 5 feet away during OP:ID.
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Post by savoy6 on Jun 13, 2007 16:43:56 GMT -5
yeah , thats what i was getting at about the playing style issue...there's an element of courtesy that seems to b missing with alot of newer folks...
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Jun 13, 2007 16:48:32 GMT -5
Mongo is right. WE HAVE TO BE POLITE! Not to neglect anyone else's feelings but, Tripps is offended and he might not come back. I'm sure everyone is aware of my point. MEDs in relation to FPS & higher MED -> higher FPS. Tripps, offered a very valid point. Weaver might not be able to provide safe engagements due to limited visibility. The guys a Weaver know the field better than I do. What do you guys think? Is a 100' MED functional at Weaver? If this is unobtainable then the rules need to be adjusted. If we can clear out small branches 6' and lower off of trees that might help open up the visibility but it also may be unrealistic considering the work involved.
In responce to Savoy; Thanks for the examples. We had so much to go over at "The Big Meeting" we never got around to "presidences." By that I mean rules used by other fields to help give us a feel for what ours should be. With that said i don't see one individual set that I would want to embrace, so we should pick the most suitable and add some of our own to better fit our unique field. They are a great aid, thanks.
Do we want to open the Sniper role to both semi and bolt action? 550 @ 100'
Do we want to maintain feildrifles at their current FPS? I have an idea about that but I'll probably get BOOed. CQB/Feild Rifle 350FPS @ 0/20. SAWS and DMR 415FPS @ 40'. Just a thought But it would still address the approach to simulation and keep FPS down. Its still leaves some players having to change their setup, even some stock guns.
Are "Bang Bang" rules really that effective? I use them, or some variation. ie: "SURRENDER!" = an out. But it doesn't work on groups. What about CQB? can you clear a room with a few words?
Everyone hates the idea of full face or PB masks. I tried to get pass the rule for full face protection and PB masks but we created the CQB/ Night Game waiver instead. And we really don't want to limit people based on there age.
And I agree with the attitude thing. I haven't witnessed it much but I have heard some thing which I mention before. Any ideas on how t approach this?
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Post by charleynovember on Jun 13, 2007 17:20:23 GMT -5
If you guys don't mind discussing it with us I think we can come up with something good here. How about we look at it from another perspective aswell as looking at presedence of other local SE fields and game promoters. Attracting new players ~ 415FPS at '30 and 600FPS at 100' is more likely to cause a nasty injury once in a blue moon more if there is an attitudinal issue here and I am not sure there is. SCA was saying they like to recruit younger players and they don't mind getting hit with harder hitting guns. But these under 18 players have parents that might not look too kindly on little Johnny coming home with a bloody mark on his face or a tooth missing. These parents will probally tell all their friends these friends may have kids old enough to play aswell but now they are thinking "maybe I shouldn't let Bobby play this game it seems violent look what those little punks did to Johnny Neidermeyer." Hell if we are real lucky Johnny's mom or dad is a Police officer or a city councilman or a state legislator or reporter for chanel 6 news....They look into it more and see that around the southeast most fields and orginizations of any size have lower FPS limits....These Alabama boys are too wild they must be regulated or news at 5 Airsoft, harmless game or training our children to be ruthless killers....Does any of that make sense to you guys?
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Post by frijoleluna on Jun 13, 2007 17:36:53 GMT -5
Sad that Tripps got offended. These discussions get a little warm sometimes. I hope he comes back.
Looking at this discussion, it sure is getting political. boo. but i guess it cant be avoided.
I have that stock 380 fps gun electricblu and mateba were talking about. My precious. So, obviously I still am in favor of the fps limits we have. and not the fps limits of the other nearby fields. (i mean, i wouldnt be able to use my stock gun at those fields!) If sniper fps was pushed back to 550 i wouldnt have a problem though.
Alex, are you having a bad day ?
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Jun 13, 2007 17:38:58 GMT -5
YEAH! it makes since but I think you went a touch over board with the "news at 5" ;D. The website address says it all! ;D If its an attitude thing than it needs to change. We do recruit younger guys but that is also who comes out. We dont have any 30+ players. I wish we did but... We also try to be careful about who we invite out to out-of-town OPs. You are right about the attitude though, its the most important thing. Without it we wont have a community. This is where player/ refs come in. People that are able to step back and say "Hey!" should. I still think the difference between 400-415 isnt that big of a deal but we may need to compensate with a larger MED besides banning them from CQB to promote safety. I hear 350FPS and 400FPS at 30' is pretty common. How does 400-415 at 40' sound? SAWs and DMRs have always been a touchy subject and I'm not surprised what happened, did. And , yeah Ben. I hope he does too.
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Post by mongoman on Jun 13, 2007 19:02:03 GMT -5
Wow guys, I gotta say some of the stuff I have read is shocking. We can't ask for opinions and then bash folks for giving them. We can't ask for experienced players to share with us and take it personally. Most of the time, a harsh response comes back because someone is supplying their own emotions to a post. I have been sitting back and reading, and honestly, if you guys can't take advice better, if you can't listen and bend, adjust, and compensate, then I don't know what to say. THE BULLSHIT I HAVE READ HERE IS THE REASON THAT THESE ISSUES SHOULD NOT BE DISCUSSED ONLINE. I move that this discussion is over, and if you would like to have input on the organizing of the state, come to the next meeting. This is not a pissing contest, this is an effort to get everyone working together. We are not pioneers, it has been tried before, and THIS MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION WILL KILL OUR EFFORTS BEFORE THEY START. So, the week after our next game, Saturday, the 30th, we will have another meeting at 11am sharp. We will discuss these issues then. If you can't make it, come tot he next one.
I want to thank Savoy 6 and Charlie November for thier advice and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I am sorry that some choose to discard your experience, advice and wisdom. Some of us do listen, believe me.
Mongo
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Post by etherrider on Jun 13, 2007 20:09:35 GMT -5
Okay, here is a suggestion. I know in the Us we really adhere to fps, but overseas many people lookat joules or energy. I am not suggesting that we convert to joules or any of that, but I figured that a few people may find the calculator on this site of use. you can enter fps and weight and it will convert it to joules. That may help some of this discussion along by allowing someone to look at the different weight and energies. www.cimmerians.org/FPS_Converter.html?action=joulesI know it is not exactly what we are talking about but I figure that some people who may not have had as much math or physics may get a little education out of this. I also agree with something that I think Savoy talked about....that was essentially target recognition. I know that during the Crack Run, the guys from Team Bosko rp'ed a good deal and a few times we were unarmed in firefights and I spent a lot of time with gloves off for visability and my open palms up showing "unarmed....I am dead if you choose!" Target recgo is always hard in CQB/MOUT type situations and that is why law and military units involved in those situations practice so much. I will point out that Bosko has always enjoyed playing with and against SCA and we always enjoy playing around them....IT IS JUST DANG HARD TO GET OVER AND PLAY AT YOUR GUYS FIELD......DANG IT!!!!! Sorry I didn't add too much to the discussion here, but I am still trying to figure out where and how to bridge together a better reply for some of these points presented.
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Post by etherrider on Jun 13, 2007 20:15:17 GMT -5
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mateba
4/20 K AAV & Steel City Airsoft
Posts: 426
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Post by mateba on Jun 13, 2007 20:45:47 GMT -5
That is the same trajectory calculator I posted. Neat isn't it! good post but what do they do with snipers?
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